Many, many Methodist churches are led by ordained women pastors, including two at my own church in Michigan. And many Methodist churches, including mine, are inclusive -- though that may cause a denominational split down the road.
It looks as though there will be a split. I don't know how big.
As I understand it, in the United Methodist church each church is free to do what it wants to do in regard to "inclusion" -- That is, each church is free to sanction same sex marriages or have gay clergy or to not have same sex marriages or gay clergy. But some churches still feel that they should leave the United Methodists and form a separate Methodists group or join "conservative" churches.
My Presbyterian church has an all female leadership team. The only male on the staff is in charge of facilities. The Methodist church is in a tough spot with likely a huge split. By allowing Voting membership
In areas of the world with very conservative values the more progressive US church is caught
And there are at least two "species" of Presbyterians. The only Presbyterian is quite conservative, possibly even more than Anglican. They seem no wiling to interact with other churches.
Yes, Garrison, we live in strange times. Five of the Supremes seem to be obsessed by guns, sex, and religion. Some churches are also. In some churches, Jesus is sort of a proforma reason for being there. The preacher says we love Jesus, but then quickly goes on to the "culture war" issues and right wing politics. Some churches seldom talk about the gospels but to me the gospels are the most important part of the Bible and are the reason for being there.
The good old Episcopal church still hangs in there reading from the gospels every Sunday and trying in some fashion to follow the teachings of our Lord.
I am glad to see that women are in leadership roles in many churches. Women do most of the work in most churches but in some only a man can be in "leadership." "Men in leadership" often means that the women do the work but when it comes times for taking credit for what was done or getting applause or pay, the man steps forward.
Apparently the people who want to carry guns have all of the rights. Us people who don't want to carry or own guns seem to have no rights. It is strange how all of these rights work. The Supremes seem to thing that some people (like corporations, gun owners and sellers, etc.) are just loaded down with rights. While others (such as working people, labor unions, people who don't own guns) have no rights.
Have a good day and stay away from crowds. You never know when someone will pull a gun.
Several years ago we were in a church and a large bearded man wearing a gun belt and gun came in an sat down. I have often wondered about the psychology of someone who would go to an obviously peaceful gathering with a gun strapped on for all to see. One big problem with guns is the people who carry them. Many of the people who carry guns are not stable people.
The more progressive wing of the Lutheran church, ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America) is even more liturgical than Episcopals, almost as much as the Catholics (but without a lot of their baggage). May of our congregations (along with congregations of other denominations) are RIC -- Reconciled in Christ -- accepting and welcoming all regardless of race, gender, marital status, politics, etc. Many of us have open Communion, come one, come all. The music is great and my church is back singing everything, previously restricted because of COVID although we require masks.
The ELCA and the predecessor LCA has ordained women for over 50 years. My church had a woman pastor for more than 20 years. Women are also in leadership roles, co-chairs of our church Council are women.
At the risk of incurring wrath from multiple sides, I purport that churches - religion - in general, is at the heart of the problem. For those who choose to believe and find comfort in it, fine. For the time being, we're still a free country. My problem is that too many of them can't keep their beliefs to themselves, and insist that those who don't believe need to accept their truth as the only truth, either through benign indoctrination or by force. Too many examples throughout history and to the present day to list here. Meanwhile, those same zealots elect politicians who inform legislation that directly, and often negatively, impacts the rest of us. Religion and money, the roots of all evil, that are too often inextricably intertwined. My opinion, and I'm sticking to it.
Many churches today are heavily engaged in the culture wars. You are right. If you look at the culture wars, right wing politics, evangelical religion, right wing media -- the things that run through it all is money and political power. Fortunes and political careers are being made fighting the culture wars and sowing division and disinformation. Best wishes.
Thanks Sandi for saying what I was thinking but unable to say in such an intelligent way. I enjoy the stories, the music, and gathering together as friends but I believe Religions build walls between us instead of bringing us together. I believe Guns will kill us, not protect us.
You'd think there are more cops who oppose arming every driver they pull over, every jogger on the street, than there are citizen guardians. At 400 million, "retraining" the blue line must be like retraining the Capitol Police, unprecedented.
Sgt. Keillor, Sir! I think you have been working too hard lately. First off, your NY apartment is 12 floors up. You must be using the stair case lately, both down and up, to get yourself in shape for Billions Gun Battle.
I also know you are doing your shows of Woebegon-caring-kindness 10 times a week, sometimes on both coasts a day apart. No one should be subjected to such a work ethic. I've got to believe you and your wonderful wife (I have one, too) have enough $$$ to get by on your actuarial table for times ahead, as in arming oneself.
We're both of Scottish origin....my Kings go back to Mary Queen of Scots and we may be related, said my mother.. You, sir, have a finer Scott pedigree, given your Keillor name: "Keillor is a surname of Scottish origin. It is thought to derive from the Scottish Gaelic word "gu leòr" (modern English, “galore”) ...Meaning: “Sufficient,” “Enough,” "Plenty"- Wikipedia"....all of which augurs enough retirement $$$ and arming yourself with more weapons if you must. Do buy an infrared scope and keep your head low.
There is a better answer somewhere in our Christian prayerbooks and more guns isn't it. In fact, the Christ in Christian has told us clearly, "Love ye one another" and "Turn your cheek when slapped." Hang in there, sir. Find a better answer: Let's love one another at the same time as not liking them. It's tough, especially if it's a Conservative in question, but, they have a similar challenge, too.
Damn that DNA which makes us who we are, and pass the prayerbooks, and we'll all be free.
I'll be offering a prayer for church this Sunday --since the 1st Lesson is one of the Lady Wisdom passages from Proverbs -- that God's wisdom be extended to legislators, judges, persons of power, and their families and clergy to do something to retard the spread of evil and the weapons of violence.
That's as partisan political I should get in church but privately I observe that any legislator or judge who votes no on any further restrictions on weapons of violence has blood on their hands. Unlike Pilate, that blood cannot be washed off unless they get the wisdom, from clergy and families if necessary, to do the correct things.
As a staunch United Methodist I must write to you. We have many lovely women pastors so that is not the issue. The Book of Discipline states that "practicing homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching" but there are many, many of us who disagree with this and our churches are reconciling congregations who welcome ALL to our services. The UMC is dividing over the issue of LGBTQ rights - those who believe homosexuality is a sin are leaving. I hope we will take out the offensive wording and allow openly LGBTQ persons to participate fully in the life of the church including as fully ordained clergy. It breaks my heart that there are those who don't accept all - this includes my daughter her wife and their two children, my amazing and special grandchildren. Keep praying for the Methodists - we need it, but as usual, we are not all painted with the same brush. On another note, I have been a fan since 1979. I grew up in a small lumber town (2000 people) in the Northern Sierra Nevada mountains in CA so know many of the folks in Lake Wobegon.
Though I realize this is not 1861, my namesake was one of the first across the Ohio river to begin putting down the last insurrection. Perhaps the insurrectionists among us feel that unlimited access to guns gives them an advantage. However, we have actually witnessed a citizenry rising up to counter an insurrection in this country. Insurrection is unlikely, but I'd expect that to happen again, if necessary. Your column today is pretty dark, Garrison. Let's pray that no scenario like yours or the one above ever emerges again. I'm actually very positive about our future as a country. I think we are witnessing the cresting of a wave and that the next generation of leaders will put rules in place so we can return to responsible discourse that doesn't result in threats of violence.
Read through the comments and they all address the Church issue you were on about. Religion is cloaking the Gun issue, again. couldn't find an "I'm just kidding" emoji to put in
Taken in such coincidental proximity to the US House January 6 Select Committee hearing and the ubiquity of weapons in the films it showed...this is a particularly chilling and depressing post.
Your wry commentary on the petty distinctions among Protestants launched a torrent of sectarian jockeying that is surely safer ground than the minefield of guns and insurrection. It is sad commentary on what a powerful force a unified church could be were all these micro factions brought together under one banner, instead of seeking out new ways to look down our noses at each other. Roger Krenkler Westlake Village, CA
Dear Sir—I love your thoughtful discourse and gain insight into how others practice their community and faith…we should all be communitarians, certainly anyone who professes to follow the mythology and guidance of Jesus, but it’s so hard when some who profess faith practice, monetize hate and fear instead of love. I’m sorry, I have trouble with this, as well as those in power who would remove freedoms from women to act on their beliefs, with their doctor, to choose whether to carry a pregnancy forward. We should be about choice, responsibility and community, and not violence. And I’m a fan of learning and education, sex and otherwise, as choice and freedom are best served by those who learn.
I not sure where some Christian’s, the Supremes for example, see that ‘might makes right’…while I have not accepted Jesus as my savior, as reported, he was a good teacher of community and values, and violence was not on the list! I hear instead honoring one’s action for ‘the least of these’, the children in school comes to mind, with their joy, and love. I see powerful women, and men too, who practice, here on earth, good works for the benefit of others simply because this is the right thing to do…and arming teachers creates a class of teachers who must take on violence, and this is not the values Jesus would admire. In fact, it pretty clear, violence stops you from going to heaven, as does lying, cheating, bloviating, and, unless you worship the Orange god, you know this to be true. So why all the barriers, the walls, the defensive ditches, the gated communities of all kinds? Why can’t we be our better angels, a shining light, the beacon? Who and what stops us?
This is at once hilarious and terrifying as all great satire should be. Mahalo nui loa for putting our current dilemma into perspective. Here on Maui, we thankfully, do not have the gun obsession mainlanders are afflicted with. Another reason “we lucky we live in paradise and we not dead!” Keep up the good work.
Many, many Methodist churches are led by ordained women pastors, including two at my own church in Michigan. And many Methodist churches, including mine, are inclusive -- though that may cause a denominational split down the road.
It looks as though there will be a split. I don't know how big.
As I understand it, in the United Methodist church each church is free to do what it wants to do in regard to "inclusion" -- That is, each church is free to sanction same sex marriages or have gay clergy or to not have same sex marriages or gay clergy. But some churches still feel that they should leave the United Methodists and form a separate Methodists group or join "conservative" churches.
My Presbyterian church has an all female leadership team. The only male on the staff is in charge of facilities. The Methodist church is in a tough spot with likely a huge split. By allowing Voting membership
In areas of the world with very conservative values the more progressive US church is caught
between a rock
And a hard place.
And there are at least two "species" of Presbyterians. The only Presbyterian is quite conservative, possibly even more than Anglican. They seem no wiling to interact with other churches.
Yes, Garrison, we live in strange times. Five of the Supremes seem to be obsessed by guns, sex, and religion. Some churches are also. In some churches, Jesus is sort of a proforma reason for being there. The preacher says we love Jesus, but then quickly goes on to the "culture war" issues and right wing politics. Some churches seldom talk about the gospels but to me the gospels are the most important part of the Bible and are the reason for being there.
The good old Episcopal church still hangs in there reading from the gospels every Sunday and trying in some fashion to follow the teachings of our Lord.
I am glad to see that women are in leadership roles in many churches. Women do most of the work in most churches but in some only a man can be in "leadership." "Men in leadership" often means that the women do the work but when it comes times for taking credit for what was done or getting applause or pay, the man steps forward.
Apparently the people who want to carry guns have all of the rights. Us people who don't want to carry or own guns seem to have no rights. It is strange how all of these rights work. The Supremes seem to thing that some people (like corporations, gun owners and sellers, etc.) are just loaded down with rights. While others (such as working people, labor unions, people who don't own guns) have no rights.
Have a good day and stay away from crowds. You never know when someone will pull a gun.
Several years ago we were in a church and a large bearded man wearing a gun belt and gun came in an sat down. I have often wondered about the psychology of someone who would go to an obviously peaceful gathering with a gun strapped on for all to see. One big problem with guns is the people who carry them. Many of the people who carry guns are not stable people.
The more progressive wing of the Lutheran church, ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America) is even more liturgical than Episcopals, almost as much as the Catholics (but without a lot of their baggage). May of our congregations (along with congregations of other denominations) are RIC -- Reconciled in Christ -- accepting and welcoming all regardless of race, gender, marital status, politics, etc. Many of us have open Communion, come one, come all. The music is great and my church is back singing everything, previously restricted because of COVID although we require masks.
The ELCA and the predecessor LCA has ordained women for over 50 years. My church had a woman pastor for more than 20 years. Women are also in leadership roles, co-chairs of our church Council are women.
At the risk of incurring wrath from multiple sides, I purport that churches - religion - in general, is at the heart of the problem. For those who choose to believe and find comfort in it, fine. For the time being, we're still a free country. My problem is that too many of them can't keep their beliefs to themselves, and insist that those who don't believe need to accept their truth as the only truth, either through benign indoctrination or by force. Too many examples throughout history and to the present day to list here. Meanwhile, those same zealots elect politicians who inform legislation that directly, and often negatively, impacts the rest of us. Religion and money, the roots of all evil, that are too often inextricably intertwined. My opinion, and I'm sticking to it.
Many churches today are heavily engaged in the culture wars. You are right. If you look at the culture wars, right wing politics, evangelical religion, right wing media -- the things that run through it all is money and political power. Fortunes and political careers are being made fighting the culture wars and sowing division and disinformation. Best wishes.
Thanks Sandi for saying what I was thinking but unable to say in such an intelligent way. I enjoy the stories, the music, and gathering together as friends but I believe Religions build walls between us instead of bringing us together. I believe Guns will kill us, not protect us.
And all this time I thought rod meant fishing pole.
I loved that!
You'd think there are more cops who oppose arming every driver they pull over, every jogger on the street, than there are citizen guardians. At 400 million, "retraining" the blue line must be like retraining the Capitol Police, unprecedented.
Sgt. Keillor, Sir! I think you have been working too hard lately. First off, your NY apartment is 12 floors up. You must be using the stair case lately, both down and up, to get yourself in shape for Billions Gun Battle.
I also know you are doing your shows of Woebegon-caring-kindness 10 times a week, sometimes on both coasts a day apart. No one should be subjected to such a work ethic. I've got to believe you and your wonderful wife (I have one, too) have enough $$$ to get by on your actuarial table for times ahead, as in arming oneself.
We're both of Scottish origin....my Kings go back to Mary Queen of Scots and we may be related, said my mother.. You, sir, have a finer Scott pedigree, given your Keillor name: "Keillor is a surname of Scottish origin. It is thought to derive from the Scottish Gaelic word "gu leòr" (modern English, “galore”) ...Meaning: “Sufficient,” “Enough,” "Plenty"- Wikipedia"....all of which augurs enough retirement $$$ and arming yourself with more weapons if you must. Do buy an infrared scope and keep your head low.
There is a better answer somewhere in our Christian prayerbooks and more guns isn't it. In fact, the Christ in Christian has told us clearly, "Love ye one another" and "Turn your cheek when slapped." Hang in there, sir. Find a better answer: Let's love one another at the same time as not liking them. It's tough, especially if it's a Conservative in question, but, they have a similar challenge, too.
Damn that DNA which makes us who we are, and pass the prayerbooks, and we'll all be free.
I'll be offering a prayer for church this Sunday --since the 1st Lesson is one of the Lady Wisdom passages from Proverbs -- that God's wisdom be extended to legislators, judges, persons of power, and their families and clergy to do something to retard the spread of evil and the weapons of violence.
That's as partisan political I should get in church but privately I observe that any legislator or judge who votes no on any further restrictions on weapons of violence has blood on their hands. Unlike Pilate, that blood cannot be washed off unless they get the wisdom, from clergy and families if necessary, to do the correct things.
As a staunch United Methodist I must write to you. We have many lovely women pastors so that is not the issue. The Book of Discipline states that "practicing homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching" but there are many, many of us who disagree with this and our churches are reconciling congregations who welcome ALL to our services. The UMC is dividing over the issue of LGBTQ rights - those who believe homosexuality is a sin are leaving. I hope we will take out the offensive wording and allow openly LGBTQ persons to participate fully in the life of the church including as fully ordained clergy. It breaks my heart that there are those who don't accept all - this includes my daughter her wife and their two children, my amazing and special grandchildren. Keep praying for the Methodists - we need it, but as usual, we are not all painted with the same brush. On another note, I have been a fan since 1979. I grew up in a small lumber town (2000 people) in the Northern Sierra Nevada mountains in CA so know many of the folks in Lake Wobegon.
Though I realize this is not 1861, my namesake was one of the first across the Ohio river to begin putting down the last insurrection. Perhaps the insurrectionists among us feel that unlimited access to guns gives them an advantage. However, we have actually witnessed a citizenry rising up to counter an insurrection in this country. Insurrection is unlikely, but I'd expect that to happen again, if necessary. Your column today is pretty dark, Garrison. Let's pray that no scenario like yours or the one above ever emerges again. I'm actually very positive about our future as a country. I think we are witnessing the cresting of a wave and that the next generation of leaders will put rules in place so we can return to responsible discourse that doesn't result in threats of violence.
Read through the comments and they all address the Church issue you were on about. Religion is cloaking the Gun issue, again. couldn't find an "I'm just kidding" emoji to put in
Taken in such coincidental proximity to the US House January 6 Select Committee hearing and the ubiquity of weapons in the films it showed...this is a particularly chilling and depressing post.
Your wry commentary on the petty distinctions among Protestants launched a torrent of sectarian jockeying that is surely safer ground than the minefield of guns and insurrection. It is sad commentary on what a powerful force a unified church could be were all these micro factions brought together under one banner, instead of seeking out new ways to look down our noses at each other. Roger Krenkler Westlake Village, CA
Nice rhyming at the end!
Dear Sir—I love your thoughtful discourse and gain insight into how others practice their community and faith…we should all be communitarians, certainly anyone who professes to follow the mythology and guidance of Jesus, but it’s so hard when some who profess faith practice, monetize hate and fear instead of love. I’m sorry, I have trouble with this, as well as those in power who would remove freedoms from women to act on their beliefs, with their doctor, to choose whether to carry a pregnancy forward. We should be about choice, responsibility and community, and not violence. And I’m a fan of learning and education, sex and otherwise, as choice and freedom are best served by those who learn.
I not sure where some Christian’s, the Supremes for example, see that ‘might makes right’…while I have not accepted Jesus as my savior, as reported, he was a good teacher of community and values, and violence was not on the list! I hear instead honoring one’s action for ‘the least of these’, the children in school comes to mind, with their joy, and love. I see powerful women, and men too, who practice, here on earth, good works for the benefit of others simply because this is the right thing to do…and arming teachers creates a class of teachers who must take on violence, and this is not the values Jesus would admire. In fact, it pretty clear, violence stops you from going to heaven, as does lying, cheating, bloviating, and, unless you worship the Orange god, you know this to be true. So why all the barriers, the walls, the defensive ditches, the gated communities of all kinds? Why can’t we be our better angels, a shining light, the beacon? Who and what stops us?
This is at once hilarious and terrifying as all great satire should be. Mahalo nui loa for putting our current dilemma into perspective. Here on Maui, we thankfully, do not have the gun obsession mainlanders are afflicted with. Another reason “we lucky we live in paradise and we not dead!” Keep up the good work.